Was Kallis better than Sobers?

.. But did you notice that the Reverend is running away from the question as to how many wickets  Kallis took against Zimbabwe and Bangladesh .
Sobers took none. The simple answer is that Sobers was even a better bowler than Kallis since Kallis numbers were inflated by bowling to such weak teams as the Westindies , Zimbabwe and Bangladesh

OK!

* In 19 tests against Australia, Sobers took 51 wickets at a poor average of 39.69 and a poor strike rate of 95.98

* In 36 tests against England, Sobers took 102 wickets at a good average of 32.58 and an ordinary strike rate of 85.99

* In 18 tests against India, Sobers took 59 wickets at an excellent average of 25.69 and a very good strike rate of 72.90

howstat.com/cricket/Statistics/Players/P...ts.asp?PlayerID=1652

* Anyway you look at his bowling numbers---Sobers was just an ordinary performer with the ball.

* BUT HE WAS EXTRAORDINARILY GREAT WITH THE BAT.

Rev

Rev my final word on this thread ..... If you cant dazzle them with brilliance , then baffle them with bulls***

* During Sobers era--India and Pakistan were minnows---and Sobers mauled minnows.

* Kallis was also a minnow bully---he mauled the West Indies, Bangladesh and Zimbabwe.

Rev

Good lord. I'm getting real sick of this "Numbers don't lie" - well they may not, but they could be often misleading. Just numbers won't do anything. You've to contextualize the figures. Sometimes not everything is quantifiable when you make value based judgments like who's "better".
For eg. people with reasonable knowledge of cricket will just LOL if you call Ponting a vastly superior captain to Border purely on W/L ratio.

India and Pak were never minnows like Zim, Bang and early Lanka.  In fact it can be argued that Pak was never minnow..powerful from the start.

Sobers bowled a lot and Sobers used to be a game changer with the ball.  Sobers also used to be captain..from 1965 to 1972.

Sobers bowled as a young man..came into the side as a left arm spinner then batted into a great.  west indies was not always a great team during Sobers time.  from 1968 with the decline of Hall and Griff Sobers literally manned the pace on his own.

Grayson Shillingford, Vanburn Holder, Philbert Blair, John Sheppard, Uton Dowe were his main pace supports before Boyce and Bernard Julien emerged by 1973, Sobers' second to last year.

in the spin, Gibbs had declined by 1971.  we had A yardy legspinner...Barrett?  Jack Noreiga in 1971.  Jumadeen and Inshan Ali may have played a game or 2  with Sobers..David Holdford...

Hardly great bowling support eh

from 1968 to 1972 west indies were in full decline and Sobers bore the brunt as batsman, bowler and captain.  the criticism of Sobers in the west indies over the decline/losing was enormous..real pressure.  also he was playing cricket non stop in England, the west indies and in Oz.  then he made the mistake of hob-nobbing with  Ian Smith and double hell  broke loose for him in the world..not just n the west indies.

how Sobers survived that period in his life is worthy of a documentary..investigative.  1968 when west indies were devoured by Lawrys Oz..to 1973 when he gave way for Kanhai were truly hard years for Sobers..harder than, I think, any other cricketer endured then as now.

try find a number for that Rev.

Try find a number also for racist umpiring to see many wickets you can add to sobers tally and how many unearned additional runs to take away to get to an accurate expression for what would be Sobers' real figures.

and why wont they add the world tests figures to his runs, catches and wickets tallies as they should.  those would also make a positive difference and reflect real figures and accurate representation of Sobers records.

and remember he captained the world teams as well..right in the middle of great controversy in his life.

your numbers cannot do justice to Sobers Rev.  it is not that I cannot face the truth about his bowling figures.  it is you who have a problem with the truth..or you cant see truth befuddled by the numbers that blind you to reality :'(

Few west indians have good records in Oz...

there is a reason for that right from the start, the entry of west indies into world cricket and our first tour of Oz in 1931.  it is called racist umpiring.

that has now morphed into elite umpiring that is actually worse than the old Oz home umps.  now that we can actually see what's going on we can actually tell west indies will get screwed in almost all on field decisions and referrals.

this is serious business man... and over the generations it has cost west indies a whole lot in terms of wins and losses and individual stats of our players.

Australia has been the worst over the years and I don't take any stats against Oz in Oz seriously as a result..team stats or individual stats.

now if the Rev can come up with a number that reconciles all those stats into what would be accurate representation of what they should be miraculously he would be able to give us their real worth.  but he cant.

numbers like those is what he should be looking for

another factor in the mix that Revs' numbers do not reflect..Sobers figures against Oz in the west indies....

Sobers played the Oz 2 times in the west indies ten years apart...1954-55/1964-65

the first time was  Sobers was still 17 years old..to be 18 in July of that year.. in a side led by Jeffrey Stollmeyer..and when he got injured..led by Dennis Atkinson.

it was a team totally disunited and dissatisfied with its leadership and selection.  it could hardly be defined by the term TEAM

it most definitely was not a team..had no real bowling and was devoured by the Oz.  Sobers was a kid and in the mix did well enough. 

his averages are for that series are here:
www.howstat.com.au/cricket/Statistics/Se....asp?SeriesCode=0105

then in 1965 Sobers had been appointed Captain after Worrell in england 1963..the first series after Worrell.  west indies had no test cricket in 1964.  Sobers led to victory but he clearly used that series to get used to playing as captain.

his averages for that series are here:
www.howstat.com.au/cricket/Statistics/Se....asp?SeriesCode=0148

from then on Sobers was dynamite as captain and player.

there was also a controversy over the captaincy in 1965.. for Conrad Hunte was Worrells Vcap and was supposed to accede on Worrells departure.  instead Worrell came out for Sobers and that resulted in a difficulty in the team. 

anyway Hunte retired after england in 1966..when he might have been able to go on for a few more years

so Sobers had about 9 tests against Oz in the west indies over 2 tours

the 1965 Oz tour of the west indies was a low scoring affair..Hunte being the only batsman to top 500 runs
Kanhai came next at 462, the Oz Cowper at 417 and Butcher at 405...

Sobers was next with 362 at 39 in 10 innings..

1955 was very interesting for Sobers as a kid.  it was a 5 test series and Sobers played in 4.  he was used as an opener once. his highest score in that series was 64.  he had 2 not outs .

perhaps his outstanding feat apart from demonstrating huge batting potential was bowling stats in the third test of 19-10-20-3/11-4-19-0

so seen in its proper perspective Revs figures for Sobers in the west indies is not a negative at all but a highly positive situation that helped take the sting out of the 1955 defeat.. and was a key contribution to a huge series win for the west indies in 1965..west indies first ever series win against Australia anywhere

when was Pakistan a minnow?

Pakistan first played west indies in 1958!  and back to back played again in 1959..second leg of the tour to India that year.

please Rev..for your own enlightenment take another look at those tours and tell me what was minnow about Pakistan ::confused::

and by 1959/60 Sobers began to maul all teams save the Kiwi..true minnows whom he never mauled?

Pakistan tour of the west indies 1958
www.howstat.com.au/cricket/statistics/Se....asp?SeriesCode=0116

West Indies in Pak 1959
www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/62855.html
www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/62857.html
www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/current/match/62856.html

how again is Pak to be considered a minnow from the earlies ::confused::

How many on Covered versus Uncovered Pitches  ?

Calypso , another variable to analyse as a different  " era " tingy