West Indies vs New Zealand: discussion thread

West Indies need to drop Smith and bat second. At this stage of the tournament, I think batting second psychologically helps.

If we get kicked out, we have Gayle, Smith, Ramdin and Samuels to blame. The seniors didn't stand up.

We can also blame Narine for not fixing himself faster.

We can also blame Lloyd and the selectors. In 2014, DJ Bravo averaged 205 vs New Zealand in New Zealand, though if selected he would have probably went on strike after the Ireland game.

what is there to discuss
sorry kiwis

Narine? Narine has been flexing for a long, long time. So why blame him?

In this case the psychological damage was inflicted long before WI batted.

the cricket west indies played last night was under intelligent to me.... but there are players in there who are not really up to it by their brains....situations like what west indies found itself in last night, batting second to 393, in great batting conditions, are  perfect opportunities for the batsmen to set up, solidify and establish reputations.  all wasted

Samules is prone to nonsense and is a magnet for bad things for the team.  the sooner he is gone the better for west indies.  at least team luck should improve exponentially. I thought he was gone for good already.  Skammy brought him back

Johnson Charles is challenged by the brains.  that shot he played to get bowled was all boonies, a country arse batsman who does not have the slightest knowledge and skill about opening an innings, especially against a left hander.  left handers as if by nature always achieve out-swing...most particularly early in an innings.  you have to compensate for that when you play against them, as you follow the ball so that if it swings out you are there with it...
or you use your stance...the keeper is back so bat out of your crease to reduce the amount of swing..guard to the middle and off a bit but make sure you don't get bowled behind your back.
Charles looked incredibly unsophisticated and foolish getting bowled like that at the top level of the game. at the top level batsmen mus' work out things like that early. these days they have coaches to tell than at first level cricket.  by the time they reach ODI that shud be no problem

I admit Gayle was a problem at the crease with his lack of mobility..so hitting boundaries became a premium. yet Simmons an' dem had to occupy.  it was a beautiful batting situation.  all they had to was occupy and play intelligently..yet they were all in an undue hurry.  for example Gayle had to get out to get the batting really flowing.  yet he had to make an impact.  well he had to be facilitated to blast the bowling till he got out .  61 was perfect from Gayle if by the time he was the firs/second man out. 

then Simmons and Charles or any combination of Simmons, Charles, Samules would flow about the bowling..singles, 2's, 3s then boundaries..after Gayles Damage.

Ramdin just dont remember Rahul Dravid  eh..who used to be pretty mindful of where his pads were early in his innings...what to expect from the ball, the shots he played and where his legs were.  and when he pitch tended to keep low. I watched Dravid at Roseau Dominica with is eyes riveted on balls..backing to the leg stump but eyes glued to the ball and blocked it from hitting his stumps with his pads outside the line of danger.  he would just lean in and hit the ball.
Dravid was a thinking, anticipatory batsman who used all his experience to figure out any individual situation and current situation he was batting in to survive and thrive.  with a batsman like Dravid..and to a lesser extent Sangakara, no situation is lost as long as they were and are batting.  they were and are not as skillful as Sobers was for example who constantly beat impossible situations by extreme skill and smarts to.  but those 2 were/are extremely smart at the crease.  that is why they score so much. bowlers must to work real hard to get them out
Ramdin with all his experience does not really use it at the crease  and so he gets out for little far to often.  Ramdin has a very nice batting skill,  he is correct, aggressive, can play a lot of shots..does not get fooled by the routine like silly Charles.  focus, attention and  full use of his vast experience is what Ramdin needs in his game to scale the top and remain there

Carter is not good enough.  he bats at 27 years of age like a rookie with skill, a slightly advanced version of that guy from Jamaica Findlay whom Gayle put in his team when he was allowed to substitute the Jamaica team for the west indies.  last night Johnson Charles looked like that same Findly against the Paks..leg break drop and spins across him and he joomps in total disarray playing nowhere down the leg side as the ball spun away on the off.  Carter is better than but only just.
Carter has established a profile already on which he can be assessed. that profile exposes him to be totally inconsistent, not improving and has no upside from what has been observed of him.  his selection is a waste of time.  the west indies must select young batsmen with upside, smarts and character, ambition in the game.  young batsmen are not usually like fast bowlers who can suffer from being introduced too young.  usually those survive to thrive if they are good enough
young batsmen with upside generally work out... opposed to players like Carter who did not cut it when young.  a batsman can come in older and thrive too but simply he must be good.  and usually that can be told by his first class performance all along.  usually there is surfeit of good players who kept him out all the time. when such a player is selected he blossoms immediately because he was always good.  Carter has no such profile.  he scored well at one time but never followed it up.  he went flat and has stayed mostly flat.  he is now selected with a hope and prayer.

Simmons is double Samules of slightly less quality..and it is a pain to be talking about both of them in the vicinity of the term QUALITY.  no brains is their forte'. mental incompetence is relative in consideration of those 2...serious under-achievers relative to their observed natural talent. both should never have had a future in west indies cricket at the top of it.  first class club cricket yes..even a national representation or 2..but hardly consistent west indian representation.  they both are evidence of the poverty of west indies cricket at the moment

there is not a single current batsman in that west indian team last night, for this tournament as a whole,  who should be there save possibly Gayle..his fitness of first consideration.  all the rest are useless.

on the captain!  he must be taking wickets.  he is not a convincing wicket-taker.  he has little effect against good batsmen.  he must improve as a bowler if he continues to occupy his current position on the team, down the order.

alternatively, he can focus on his batting which appears to have legs his bowling does not have.. and make his bowling a langniappe, a sort of extra some- an advantage which may prove useful at times.  his captaincy appears to have some legs and maybe the wicb will explore that aspect of his game.  for sure they will in fact.  he is their boy.  but he has to have a valid place on the team and it does not appear he will achieve any sch validity with his bowling

Mr Mapoui you actually stayed to watch WI bat?

I wanted to watch Charles bat, or rather I wanted to see how long he would last against quality bowling. The man nah even make up for his misfield which cost WI 4 runs.

He needs some serious help in that department. He just lets the game drift in the middle overs and long leg is not the place for a captain to be.

I notice you stay off "your boy" Benn - he is another that needs to be put out to pasture. Poor bowling and a liability in the field.

Phil Simmons have his work cut out for him.

Samuels showed quality with India Bookies and Simmons with a Japanese device of Pornographic images ! 

Again poor bowling, poor captaincy and poor fielding cost West Indies big time last night. Samuels dropping Guptil on 4 and Holder not setting the right fields as well as bowlers not bowling the right line and length made New Zealand look better than they are.

Post Mortem discussion :

Charles position was supposed to be as a Opener/WicketKeeper !

But no ! play Ramdin whom contributed a  DUCK 


kudos though for sending the ball down to Benn to run out Ross Taylor !

Before the tournament, I said West Indies need to go into all ODIs with a 4 prong spin attack. I now believe this even more so.

Good teams think our medium and full pacers are a joke. Guys like  Badree, Deo, Permaul and Narine operating in tandem will squeeze the modern ability to double a team's score in the last 10-15 overs. They might not take wickets, but it will limit some runs. Unfortunately a coach like Ambrose is wedded to the idea of pace, which aids boundary hitting.

We also know that Holder and Taylor are ineffective with the old ball. We know they have to be bowled out early. Yesterday, however, Holder bolwed himself and Taylor for a 5 over early spell, then stopped. The New Zealanders, however, bowled their best bowlers out fast, everyone doing 8-10 over spells on the trot.

The big score the Kiwis posted is largely due to our out-dated bowling selection and very bad bowling management. From this point onwards, the West Indies need to phase out the idea of "all rounders" and stick with 4 or 5 pure bowlers for ODIs. The Kiwis had 4 pure bowlers and a fast part timer. We had 1 pure pacer (Taylor), one hack spinner (Benn), and part timers. Holder I class as an all-rounder. You cannot play him and Sammy together.

I thought Gayle batted well. He does what he usually does, losing his shape and paying the price, but you can tell he cares about the team, cares about putting his hands up and that he was determined to do well. I felt kind of sad watching him get out.

Samuels continues to be a talented jackasseramous.

Charles' wicket was pure comedy. I love watching him get angry. I applaud the way he restrains himself from stabbing umpires.

Ramdin needs to be slowly phased out of limit-over games. Sammy should be dropped for a dedicated bowler. Russell should be dropped from ODIs and be played in only tests (to try to inspire brain growth) and T20s.

Simmons gifted his wicket on a batting paradise.