A Question fuh Ketchim....

Quote:So why you ridicule Mail about Pybus report ? 

Mail also has the right to fall fuh what he want 

anyway..where do you see me fall for anything?

I have little trouble recognizing familiar faces...if I am paying attention to them

Usually I am not looking because I don't care
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I find this post interesting so I wil leave the original intact to avoid affecting your natural flow. So if I may comment on certain points.

I think there are characteristics of industriousness in certain ethnicities. As an example Asians were ousted from Africa for, amongst other reasons, refusal to relinquish their British passports. Subsequenty deported and arrived in the motherland to prison like conditions in Barracks. These people are amongst some of the most successful groups of people in the UK. They arrive here only 42 yars ago with absolutely nothing, as their wealth were stripped , and they have made a success of their opportunities by pure graft.


[quote author=TRINIDADDY link=topic=90445.msg569341#msg569341 date=1402716311]
"In the context of the Caribbean you may conclude the business issue is true but it does not necessarily hold true elsewhere where the population is predominantly Black. Or is it? In the West indies you might better knowledge doe this hold true for Barbados, Jamaica etc?"

None of the northern islands have significant Indian populations. It's only Trinidad and Guyana with big Indian populations. Guyana was so underpopulated after 1833, that its now "freed" local landowners (mostly white and Indian) were shipping in blacks from the other islands to work the land.So who are the captains in retail, commerce etc? Is it the Chinese, Syrians etc?

But the point is, humans are not rigid things. What leads to people doing anything is complex. For example, Caribbean blacks were released from slavery only 4 generations ago. Two of those generations had to put up with all kinds of laws banning them from property and inheritance, which basically forced them to work for others. The next 2 generations - the first "educated" blacks in the Caribbean EVER - went largely into the public sector. They had nowhere else to go. Those that had no education or failed school - why should they be expected not to? Were their parents schooled? Their grandparents? A family line is supposed to adapt to such social changes immediately? - were pushed into poverty. It's only now, in the 21st century, that some black family lines have amassed enough momentum to be big entrepreneurial business folk. If you view that as a good thing.I see this is making an excuse for a lack of effort.

Indians have been in the caribbean for around 169 years. On commenting on indenturd labourship, and prompted by an article sent by the Chirman, I commenced some research and the Indians, in Guyana, were called slaves, the indentured labourship protocols were ignored with beatings and slave conditions. Many died on plantations or died desperately running away. The whole deblce may not have been as sustained as slavery but they had many other obstacles in their way. That first generation, of which my family had a few in our employ, were illiterate and could hardly speak english. Yet the successful Indians started with the second generation and strongly built on by the third and thereafter.

I would no be surprised if Ketchim and the other posters of Indian ancestry, for example, is not third generation thmselves. Therefore I do not buy this time to get going argument.

Post 1962 in Trinbgo particularly, and perhaps currently, the civil service and public services jobs were the domain of the black. All sorts of rules were introduced to exclude non blacks. Although Trinbago is not  social security state, tax payers funds are used to house predominantly Black families across that country. Further we know about the Burnham legacy. So when Ketchim talks about enitlement I can see his take as post colonialism, it seems an unjust, biased system was replaced by another, except run by Blacks.

Chinese and others have migrated with hardly anything, vnded on streets, learning the language and now are in charge. The Syrians are good examples of this.

Remember, people have very little free will as to what they do. This is even true on the biological level; most of what we do we do is pre-conscious, done microseconds before the brain is even conscious of it.Apologies if I have missed your point but I disagree. We have free will but I acknowledge we have differing abilities irrespective of ethnicity.

If one had to look at the post WICBC era from afar none of the key roles, President, CEO and CFO have been held by anyone from the Indian Community.

Most of the islands are black. The odds of an Indian being CEO is not statistically likely (the current VP of the WI Women's board is Indian). And if this hypothetical Indian becomes a CEO, it's likely that he becomes one because he is already an evil guy. I accept your point statistically but if we had to justify the marginalisation of monority ethnic groups in Europe, the Americas etc they will neither have a voice representation.

So I do find the numbers point a misnomer and an inappropriate basis to justify representtion, in the absolutely sense. In the context of Cricket in the caribbean you need to look at another reasonable basis than number. To suggest this hypothetical White/ Indian/ non Black in key post would already be evil is a big prejudgment to which I disagree.

Remember, Hilaire aint an incompetent black man.I strongly beg to differ as he was incompetence personified whether you wish to package it as being evil. He ignored the cornerstone of Orgnisation, goveranance, was a megalomaniac, a media whore and totally incompetent to dicharge what he was employed to do. Incompetence saw him aided and abetted by Hunte in losing Millions in over 21 lost matters in the courts. That is incompetence whether bought on by stupidity, being evil or whatever.... it is incompetence. He is simply evil. Most who graduate from the London School of Economics, like he did, turn out to be complete bastards. Few schools churn out as many white collar criminals, neo-cons, Big Oil and Presidential confidantes as LSE. They groom you to be an a**hole. Today Hilaire is handling all of ST Lucia's trade.The LSE is a fine institution and cannot, therefore, be defined by a few alumni becoming wayward amongst the many thousands going through their doors. The fact Hillaire had an association with the LSE shows he has some academic aptitude and nothing else. A susbequent track record would have shown him in a different light. Really what is the value of the UK's trade to St. Lucia?

Hunte is another evil dude, UN ambassador and director of both a central bank and the largest commercial bank in St Lucia. Muirhead, the current CEO, is another banker. The Guyanese board is equally corrupt, but in different ways. It's not connected to the other banks on the WI islands.Ok but thought Muirhead was a Management Consultant having worked wih the likes of KPMG etc. Perhaps I got that incorrect.

But the point is, this is not a race issue. This is a class issue.

Ironically, Ketchim is accusing blacks of being “incompetent business managers”, when Ken Gordon, WICB president a while ago, was a billionaire media and communications mogul. This is the kind of “successful businessman” Ketchim wants. Unsurprisingly, Gordon was also a banker puppet (the Royal Bank of Tand T, which has majority shares in banks all over the Caribbean, especially Suriname, St Kitts, Nevis, Jamaica, the lesser Antilles, Grenada, Barbados, Aruba). Gordon, I believe is of mixed ethnicitis, but is the exception and from what I have been informed, returned the WICB to financial balance prior to the end of his tenure.

For me I have no interest in proving anything against a particular ethnic group but a lot of times the evidence is glaring at you and pertinent to the diaspora Ketchim refers to and I have added about mine. 

You cannot fix this kind of corruption. Our system breeds it. What will happen is that the WICB will evolve and simply figure out how to be both corrupt and an institution for producing good cricketers and/or wins. It has to if it wants to survive. The only other alternative is Guyana pulling out and somehow triggering some new restructuring of the WICB, which is highly unlikely.The ECB, for examle, does not need to be accoutable to another statutory body, apart possibly the ICC on paper, as they have a common aim.

The composition of the West Indian diaspora means there is high risk that objectives are not synchronised so the nepotism, insularity and all sorts of bias will predominate so you need accountability, possibly to CARICOM, to keep them in check, to ensure governance is embedded and practicd effectively, that there is an equal opportunities employer with proper systems and process ensuring EO is real, monitred and roles offered to all with relocation packages, track records being key criteria. So for me the WICB will never work without accountability as the West Indies is not a Country with common influences and goals.


“I think it is a case of they have never been given a chance although many hold the right credentials in developing and managing large successful enterprises and even turning them around. In fact Toppin, a BIM Black, was apparently a successful businessman and could not move offices to BIM so Aanensen, an ex-banker was chosen but resigned within the year!”

In real life, my field is thermoeconomics and sustainable architecture. So to me, all “business” is socially damaging, no matter how “benign” or “hardworking” or “deserving” the “success story” mistakingly thinks it is. And to me, the whole model of the WICB is primitive, and too slow and cumbersome for dealing with cricket issues. But you cant change it. I empathise with your professional dilemma but disagree with the inability to change. What is required is a collective will from Governments to either influence the WICB direction or an alternative rival administrative organisation. This will have to be done at Government level to get ICC support.


“I am not sure about the genetic evidence, but Culturally they seem to be from their moral stand on family structures, industriousness”

That is just stereotyping. Most have very Christian, Catholic and conservative values. And social and historical factors cause “industriousness”. What was your great, great, great, great, great grandfather doing? Probably broke, starving and dumb as a door knob. Why? Stuff takes time.I suggest you look around you and explore some statistics. In the UK 53+% of Adfro Caribbean Children are from single mother families wih absent fathers. There are many occurrences of single mothers with children from different absent fathers. Now this is not limited to Black people alone but it is the propensity that is worrying.The numbers for Black Africans are very low and in the same ball park as Asians, which is the lowest. I was required to do much studies prior to adopting a child of mixed ethnicity many years ago.


"Anyone who knows anyting about Windian Cricket can see this 'entitlement' iussue permeates to selection and the composition of the key WICB roles."

It has nothing to do with race. Just money and odds. If the racial compositions of the West Indies were reversed (Guyana and Trinidad predominantly black and all the other islands predominantly Indian), you would get the same situation. You would a group of Indian bankers and “corporate managers” running the WICB, and  a small group of black Guyanese angry and demanding shake up. It is clear selection is biased on a number of levels. Sammy, the smaller islands and the ever existing ethnic lines. If you diffeer so be it but the fact people who know btter than I continually debate the issue and they are not idiotic as far as I am aware.


“I do not see the relevance of this point. The politics of the middle east is complex and a classic Hagelian Dialectic study. The Ayatollah was placed by the Americans as was Sadam Hussein.”

That is exactly my point. The history is complex – the French, British and later American Empires raped the Middle East – but you totally ignore similar complexities when looking at the West Indies. You view the West Indies as every prejudicial Westerner views the Mid East.The complexity had no requirement to refer to the man's way of life. The complexity does not underpin the degree of progress or lack thereof to the coimmunity to which Ketchim makes reference. Neither did the complexity deter the IndoAfericans, Chinese etc from being successes from a less than a zero base. It is fact that Afro west Indians feel entitlement to the WICB and Cricket through its lack of EO in employment etc.


Guess which Country has contravened the most UN resolutions? I will give you a clue, they have occupied territories....

Yeah, I gave a speech at Kings College recently on this too. I've been with the BDS (boycott Israeli goods) movement since my university days. I'm only a crazy clown when WI cricket is going down. Well, you probably have to be to stay a sane WI fan. Ha ha ha. Good for you on the Palastenian question and it is this bigger Global issue I see as major barriers.


"If you ever want to kow the way one should conduct oneself, look at the scriptures and not te behaviour of some Muslims."

I am not bashing Muslims. I think you misunderstood my point. Regardless, the scriptures of the Bible and Koran and most other religious texts are the same in the way they veer wildly from barbaric values (unsurprisingly, they were written thousands of years ago) to essential, compassionate, vital, righteous and “progressive” values. What segments the religious believer chooses to believe comes down to social pressures. If the Old Testament says you can own slaves, but 100 million people around you say that's not okay, who you gonna believe? Apologies if I misunderstood your original point but  did not see the relevance of your point. However your point is duly noted.


“The WICB should have been more forward thinking to invest”

And this is a black thing? Ireland, Afganistan, New Zealand, Bangladesh, Pakistan, and until the mid 90s, India...all have the same problems we having.

When I'm travelling and watching cricket on my laptop, I visit a cricket website which has chat rooms. Whenever Pakistan and India play – Pak and Indian fans absolutely hate each other - you get non-stop racism in the comments. And because India has been winning, all the comments boil down to Indians bashing muslims and bashing Pakistanis simply for being “muslim” and “Pakistani”. To these people, Pakistan loses by nature of being “muslim” and “Pakistani”. The game outcome is “natural”. Of course Sri Lanka then arrives, kicks India's ass and the Afridi fan-boys start laughing. Prejudice is only cool when its funny. No, the investment issue is a WICB issue as I have stated. However the WICB has been under control of predominantly Blacks for a loing period of upheavals, mismanagement and on field problems.


“BUT Samuels who CANNOT bowl his wicket taking delivery since it is a PELT : and who just made 2 2nd Ball DUCKS is recalled”

Samuels, I think, was recalled for 2 reasons. One, because he mad a ton in the practise match. Two, because he is going to be permanently dropped and they need him to fail spectacularly to justify their dropping of him. He is dropped now so  am happy.

The team is captained by an Indian, Deo dont deserve to be on the WI team and Shilly was chosen based on his past work against NZ. Personlly I do not really care about either the ethnicity or region of origin rather more on selecting the best. However there is a a case to ensure your team and you Captain reflect your people but the best should always be selected. 


“SYNERGY my friend will NOT work with Crabs inna Barrel”

It already working. All the islands already play each other. You just need more layers and more games being played at different age groups.

[/quote]

If we are to believe Richard has the depth of influence as debated in these pages thn MAPPIPPEE, he has got your man Blackwood in the squad.

Is that not good?

I dont know the politics of the Blackwood pik..did not know there was anything to it.

it was past time for Samuels to go...long past time for Powell who as never any good at all...a figment of Nevisan desires and the politics of Powels supports, along with skunt Hunter and now skunt Cameron

Blackwood is the most logical response...Johnson not so logical with his very poor average after 8 years of first class cricket.  but he has lifted himself the past 2 years so we will see.  at least he is for sure better than Captain Kirk Edwards who has exposed himself to have been a fluke early and no good at all currently

I tend to agree with our post there MAPPIPPEE.

However you missed my point which was you chastising Richard for everything from selection to coaching and now he has selected Blackwood, for whose inclusion you have been championoing so surely your man Richard P is getting it right...and in line with our thinking....no?

or..you talking about the pie bus!

it was he behind Blackwood selection?

I thought that was due to Blackwoods good work by scoring tons and establishing himself as a must not to be avoided by the selectors ::confused::




I dont know pie bus but I am sure unhappy that he is running west indies cricket currently.

pie bus shud not have been hired. and west indies are implementing what apears to be his dam fool ideas when we have had studies and reports by highly qualified west indians gathering dust on the shelves..reports we have been led to believe are all very solid and useful.

you believe that that makes sense Mail ::confused::

Ha ha ha.


Kindly remember that when, in the future, you decide to blame Pybus for everything.

nonsense !...You sounding more like an Apologist in real life !

Just cynical. I think it's always something arbitrary and unpredictable that leads to certain types of change or progress. Look at the suffragette movement: it was a giant world war that got women in trousers and allowed blacks to work in factories (which was then rationalised as "progress" and in their "best interest"). And the black power movements in Britain started because Brits needed cheap workers in the 40s to pick up the slack because of all the men abroad fighting.

You're right though, it's better to keep making noise and pressuring groups like the WICB.

"poor example. They will still see Chanders as a Coolie.as they taunted Kalli and made life a living dressing room hell."

My example - a system where more games are being played within the islands and between them (instead of just 9 or so domestic tests a year) - has nothing to do with racism. The islands can be as racist as they want. More games being played and at a younger age simply equals better cricketers.

Also, I disagree that West Indians "see Chanders as a coolie" or "hate Indians". Everywhere I go, I see people exuding nothing but love for Chanders. When Chanders walked out after his first innings a few days ago, you had Jamaicans clapping him like hell. The majority of West Indians have no hatred of Indo-Caribbean or Guyanese people. And the racism that exists, whilst minor, is not a simple "black/Indian" thing. In Trinidad, in the 19th century, all the dark skinned Indians were persecuted by light skinned Indians who believed in the caste systems of Hinduism. The Islamic Indians also looked down on the Hindus and Africans.

This discussion reminds me of this song:



(a black muslim basically singing about hugging Indians)

Guyana appears to be underpopulated based on its square_footage !

In the 1800s it was underpopulated and spent almost two years bringing in workers from the rest of the islands. The French and Indians had too much land and not enough man-power.


This is gobbledy gook  !

I said "What was your great, great, great, great, great grandfather doing? Probably broke, starving and dumb as a door knob. Why? Stuff takes time."

I was implying that we are all standing on our forefathers. Your intellectual, social and financial status in the present is hugely due to where the last five or six generations of your family members were. Africans in the Caribbean have had 4 generations to figure stuff out.

" shoot the messenger "  ??

Yes, because you are unconsciously ascribing racial superiority to one group of people. You turned valid complaints – nepotism, corruption and incompetence – into racial complaints. To you, the WICB and Wi cricket are "black problems" which can be fixed by "more Indians".

interesting but it looks wrong to me from its basis..start..elitist and impositional..not natural and shaped by the needs of the people..but the needs of profit.

No. Thermoeconomic simulations show the opposite: profit, at any fixed point in time (whether profit is measured in terms of money, resources etc), is essentially zero sum. So a thermoeconomic model of capitalism treats money as heat (or caloric joules) and debt as heat loss. For one human to profit somewhere in the system, you then get proportional debts put upon another human or humans somewhere else. To prevent such a Ponzi-like system from collapsing, you thus need an exponential annual rise in production, consumption, births, exploitation and expansion (roughly a 3 percent increase in energy usage globally, every year). A thermoeconomist will say this is unsustainable and will lead to the majority being indebted. A capitalist will say we can expand onto the moon and brown people dont matter.

profit is a dirty work..profit is the product of a zero sum game.  one man's profit is another man's hurt.

In financial terms, every dollar is issued as debt at interest. So yes, money is literally zero sum. For you to be out of debt, somewhere else must exist proportional debt. This is essentially a more sophisticated and “enlightened” form of slavery.

But this "zero sum" idea also assumes that time is fixed. Under capitalism, the current debts are always paid by (the illusion of) future production. So at times our economy is zero sum, at other times its not, whilst at other times its worse than zero sum.

building sustainably with the future in mind?  in capitalist reality that reads kinda moronish!

Economists who study things like "sustainability" are called post-neo-classical economists (Herman Daly is a good one). Most of the economists you see speaking on the news are classical or neoclassical economists. They're the guys paid by bankers and big corporations. They mostly engage in misdirection.

Eco-economists will tell you that capitalism is inherently unsustainable. The system must always expand, it must always seek out new markets, and every year it needs more energy (and so gives off more heat). We already know that, at current growth rates, our system will need more energy than exists in our solar system within 800 years.

So who are the captains in retail, commerce etc? Is it the Chinese, Syrians etc?

Does it matter? 5 to 25 percent of even first world countries are poor, regardless of ethnicity. The third world is even worse.

That first generation, of which my family had a few in our employ, were illiterate and could hardly speak english. Yet the successful Indians started with the second generation and strongly built on by the third and thereafter.


Most Indians who came to the West Indies, though, came with a game-plan, their land contracts and familial bonds.

But what are you arguing? That Indians are more hardworking, resourceful and talented than blacks? Right now, poverty is worse in India than Africa. 8 Indian states have more poor than the 26 poorest African nations combined. Does this mean that Indo-West Indians are superior to subcontinent Indians? Subcontinent Indians are poor because they're flawed?



Here's philosopher Noam Chomsky:

"...people do vary in their intellectual capacities and their specialization. The world would be too horrible to contemplate if they did not. But discovery of a correlation between some of these qualities is of no scientific interest and of no social significance, except to racists, sexists and the like. Those, for example, who argue that there is a correlation between race and “success”, and those who deny this claim, are contributing to racism and other disorders, because what they are saying is based on the assumption that the answer to the question makes a difference; it does not. Those who assume otherwise must be adopting the tacit premise that a person's rights or social reward are somehow contingent on his abilities; in a decent society opportunities should confirm as far as possible to personal needs. As for social rewards, it is alleged that in our society remuneration correlates in part with IQ. But insofar as that is true, it is simply a social malady to be overcome much as slavery had to be eliminated at an earlier stage of human history. It has no implications with regard to equality of rights and in a decent society there would be no social consequences to any discovery that might be made about this question. An individual is what he is; it is only on racist assumptions that he is to be regarded as an instance of his race category."

[quote author=TRINIDADDY link=topic=90445.msg569599#msg569599 date=1402858659]
" shoot the messenger "  ??

Yes, because you are unconsciously ascribing racial superiority to one group of people. You turned valid complaints – nepotism, corruption and incompetence – into racial complaints. To you, the WICB and Wi cricket are "black problems" which can be fixed by "more Indians".
[/quote]

I suppose my assessment is different than yours :

where I see entitlement predicated on ethnicity , you package it nicely :

nep·o·tism  noun

\ˈne-pə-ˌti-zəm\

the unfair practice by a powerful person of giving jobs and other favors to relatives