mapoui

[quote author=Goog Lee link=topic=97603.msg637196#msg637196 date=1431449211]
and you will accomplish this how? 

is there anywhere in the world where this is working out well?
[/quote]

ah  googs...sweet!

it is what popular democracy means from place to place and day to day. I used term popular democracy and never outlined a model. there is no model only social need.  that is what determines the popular democracy.

society everywhere functions in minority control.  that is the problem..right up to universal level and demand for human democratic response.  minority social control is a free lunch for the controlling minority.  they win we loose.  they do not produce wealth..only tax the production of those  who work.

that is what the entire global economy is all about in all its national parts.  all the great big banks and financial houses, all the financial structures like stock exchanges, all the bureaucracies, corporate, government, NGO's..cricket admins, unions..all are now bureaucracies..all parasitic dependent on those who work to produce the wealth they can tax in one form or another to live.

remember the principles googs...there is a free lunch..we live it.  in capitalism for someone to win others must loose, and that administrative structures produces no wealth of their own and depends on others for their survival..on taxes and therefore coercion of the people..slavery of one form or another that compels them to work so they can be taxed.

because the system is exploitative we win you loose then there must be concentration..because the system is extractive.  and because it is continually extractive then concentration takes place, slowly at first then increasing in speed until a point like we are at now in which the wealth produced each year by those who work is divided up like this...the one %  ninety five %...the ninety nine % or less.

it is not that society is poor but all the revenue is concentrated in very few hands.  and they are not giving it back.  and they cant stop the system of exploitation because their wealth in calculated in the values generated by the incessant financial gambling they have engaged in that also helped concentrate the wealth, by lots of inflation..so that the system if discontinued or falls flat then great quantities of value will disappear as the currency deflates back to real value

so the rich have hedged by hoarding precious metals, diamonds, pearls and other forms of value they believe will hold..not especially in paper currencies...while they go to draconian lengths to keep the economy intact despite the rape of the people it entails.  which is why we have a developing a police state.  they must enforce profitability by austerity measures, from the five % the rest of society harvests each year from the general social product or GDP

that means the entire social safety net must be destroyed googs..ALL of it in time, nearer every day as the crisis deepens.  they must create a margin they can call profit from which interest charges can be extracted.

america for example..government, corporations..everything all bankrupt...but not the rich.  they have a the money which is why every body, and all institutions are bankrupt.  because that is the way the system works..because an entity controls that produces no wealth but extracts wealth from the system every single day, ultimately reaching a point at which they literally have taxed everything away from the people...leaving society bankrupt and in debt over its head, even if its height is ten miles tall

at which point everybody in the society is technically enslaved for they are liable for all the debt and interest and they cant pay.  lack of liquidity affects business and jobs disappear increasingly because people have no money to spend and get into too much debt trying to make ends meet.  the rich have lent us all back money they stole from us that we cant pay back so technically they own us and all we have.  society is completely enslaved only awaiting formal announcement of our formal enslavement by our creditors


SO THOSE ARE THE CONDITIONS GOOGS!

HOW DO YOU PROPOSE TO GET OUT FROM UNDER DEBT IF YOU CANT PAY IT OFF BY WORKING...BECAUSE YOU WONT MAKE ENOUGH FROM DEGRADING JOBS AND THE INTEREST IS TOO HIGH.  IT CANT BE PAID OFF UNTIL THE NEXT TEN OF YOUR GENERATIONS TO COME.

BUT THERE ARE LESS AND LESS JOBS IN A SITUATION IN WHICH ADVANCED TECHNOLOGY THREATENS TO ELIMINATE CAPITALIST JOBS ALTOGETHER!

SO WHAT IS YOUR SOLUTION GOOGS ::confused::

IT IS EASY TO SEE THAT WHILE THE WORLD IS NOWHERE NEAR ITS ACTUAL HUMAN CARRYING CAPACITY, THERE ARE TOO MANY PEOPLE FOR CAPITALISM. 

BUT GIVEN TECHNOLOGICAL ADVANCE AND AUTOMATION..THERE REALLY IS NO AMOUNT OF PEOPLE THAT IS GOOD FOR CAPITALISM.  TOO FEW ARE TOO THEY CAN TAKE IT ALL THE WAY AND REPLACE ALL THE PEOPLE WITH MACHINES


AGAIN: HOW DO YOU GOOGS PROPOSE TO SOLVE THIS..A LIMITED PICTURE OF THE TRULY CATASTROPHIC CHALLENGE OF THIS VERY DAY WE ARE ALIVE..AND GROWING WORSE AND MORE URGENT EVERY SINGLE HOUR


WHOSE INTEREST IS TO PREVAIL AND HOW:  THE RICH WILL ENSLAVE US ALL...HAVE ALREADY ACHIEVED THAT GOAL BUT YET TO ANNOUNCE IT BY DIRECTLY COMING OUT AND TAKING TOTAL DICTATOR CHARGE OF SOCIETY. 

WE ALMOST THERE..NOT MORE THAN FIVE YEARS...

OR THE PEOPLES INTEREST..BY OVERTHROWING THE CAPITALIST AND CREATING A SITUATION RESPONSIVE TO THE NEEDS OF ALL..THE POPULAR NEED.. IMMEDIATELY!

IF THEY DO THAT GOOGLY..HOW THEY DO IT ::confused::

THE SYSTEM THE PEOPLE USE TO CREATE, TO ACHIEVE THAT END IS THE POPULAR DEMOCRACY..DETERMINED BY THE CONDITIONS OF THE DAY IN THEIR LOCATION. WHAT THE PEOPLE NEED AND WHAT THEY MUST DO TO GET IT, IS THE DETERMINATIVE AND DEFINING FACTOR...THE PEOPLES DEMOCRACY

Quote:THE SYSTEM TO CREATE TO ACHIEVE THAT END IS THE POPULAR DEMOCRACY..DETERMINED BY THE CONDITIONS OF THE DAY IN THEIR LOCAZTION, WHAT THEY PEOPLE NEED AND WHAT THEY MUST DO TO GET IT.

how do you account for the lazy people?

or are you going to tell me that there are no lazy people?

IT IS NOT UP TO YOU OR ME GOOGS SO THE QUESTION IS NOT MINE.

society responds or does not respond to challenges.  there are results either way.  but the way to tell is to understand society, its crises and note the way society is stratified and in whose interest this or that option lies and which side will act etc

it is in the interest of ordinary people to rise up and take over society and use the stage on the interest of all the people.  that is the popular democracy.

it is in the interest of the capitalist to control society to keep his thing going if he can.  but as things have evolved to do so he must cut up society to suit.  that means a heavy if not terminal price for ordinary people. 

the capitalist can only create a Brave New World of enslavement to keep his place at the top of the social heap.  THAT IS ALL HE CAN DO..THE ONLY OPTION HE HAS.  HE IS A PRODUCT OF EXPLOITATION, HE LIVES BY EXPLOITATION AND CAN MAINTAIN HIM SELF ONLY BY EXPLOITATION.
what this means is that the capitalist represents human death, extinction.  that is why the planet is in the shape it is in..because the capitalist has no other option.

CAPITALISM MEANS HUMAN EXTINCTION NOT TO FAR DOWN THE ROAD

The peoples interest means the exact opposite..life and survival.  which is why I have argued that no social revolution and humanity dies.  that's it Googs...revolution or die..popular democracy or death

[quote author=Goog Lee link=topic=97603.msg637213#msg637213 date=1431457205]
how do you account for the lazy people?

or are you going to tell me that there are no lazy people?
[/quote]

what you argue and imply is that there are models somewhere that people are made from and one of them is for lazy people.  if people are products or experience and training, of social conditions your contention makes no sense.

if some one is lazy we know why.  capitalism that does not provide work for all the people makes some lazy.  ah but a popular democracy is different.  then there would be too much work for a while yet. 

by releasing the people to work for themselves.society in what is socially determined in the general good there can be no laziness.  in general security..working to produce general security there will be no laziness no unemployment

instead of projecting laziness on people the democracy requires the opposite..full participation

hahsahahahaha!  Maps, there is a name for what you are proposing.

Marx tried it...didn't work.  Look at Russia, China, Cuba, etc....

you are assuming that everyone will pull their weight!  WRONG!

People should be rewarded for their efforts...no less or no more! 

when people are perfect, with no greed and perfect sense of fair play then your system will work.  Until then, Capitalism is your best bet. 

And by Capitalism, I mean a system where work is rewarded with appropriately!  Where effort  and input is rewarded equally.  If someone only provide 50% effort, then they only get 50% of the alloted reward.  Get the drift?!

the question is who will ensure

[quote author=Goog Lee link=topic=97603.msg637217#msg637217 date=1431459128]
hahsahahahaha!  Maps, there is a name for what you are proposing.

Marx tried it...didn't work.  Look at Russia, China, Cuba, etc....

you are assuming that everyone will pull their weight!  WRONG!

People should be rewarded for their efforts...no less or no more! 

when people are perfect, with no greed and perfect sense of fair play then your system will work.  Until then, Capitalism is your best bet. 

And by Capitalism, I mean a system where work is rewarded with appropriately!  Where effort  and input is rewarded equally.  If someone only provide 50% effort, then they only get 50% of the alloted reward.  Get the drift?!

the question is who will ensure

[/quote]


you don't know what you are talking about. Marx was a scholar not a politician.  he never tried anything of the sort.  he never knew anything of the sort. what i am talking here is modern stuff arrived at on the back of the most horrific social experience imaginable.

the question that begged itself in the middle of the horror of the Bolshevik excesses in Russia, and the betrayal of Marxist principles by Stalin..was how can society avoid the horrors of a leftist revolutionary party that betrays a revolution and establishes a bureaucratic dictatorship?

the only way for that is for there to be spontaneous social revolution and avoidance altogether of a vanguard political party. and this is where a James contributed greatly with his conception of how spontaneous social revolution can come about...the very same popular democracy I have just talked about.

James showed how and why.... and it did happen and has been happening since 1956 with the Hungarian revolution against the communist bureaucracy.  the Russian Bolshevik Bureaucracy smashed the Hungarians. and every time since then we have had such revolutionary uprising it has been smashed by the established state over the world

the last example was the american occupy movement..it is has been regarded with the utmost concern by the state and smashed.  Obama took particular care to destroy that movement but its still there and will rise again

you just don't understand it fully yet googs.  mark my words however and hold them for reference as things develop.  they will be helpful to you

Quote:And by Capitalism, I mean a system where work is rewarded with appropriately!  Where effort  and input is rewarded equally.  If someone only provide 50% effort, then they only get 50% of the alloted reward.  Get the drift?!

business is not capitalism googs!

rather than demanding you to explain yourself..I will point  out to you...that capitalism and business are 2 different things. regular normal business is not against the principles of democracy..indeed has an integral role to play.

but not capitalism...and you dont know the difference Googs.  you shud find out.

Quote:the last example was the american occupy movement

really?  they were more capitists in that movement looking for whats in it for me! 

thats the crux of the problem.  You are looking for a perfect system...which means u will need perfect people.  Good luck with that!

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