I Believe That Westernization of Africa and the Middle East is Inevitable

pattycake · 10-24-2014, 02:52 PM · 1 person reading this discussion

#31
another thing , you called yourself PATTA CAKE  and where I came  from that means pussy or vagina , Take it how you may

#32
[quote author=Kwami link=topic=93572.msg595865#msg595865 date=1414293496]
pattacake ... earlier I used words like spectacularly  uniformed and naive to describe you  but now I take it all back , I  was trying to be polite
I now conclude that  you  are  just plain stupid , willfully ignorant  or insane
[/quote]

You would't last a week in Africa.  ::LOL::

And that's the double truth Ruth.  ::LOL::

#33
[quote author=Kwami link=topic=93572.msg595866#msg595866 date=1414294344]
another thing , you called yourself PATTA CAKE  and where I came  from that means pussy or vagina , Take it how you may
[/quote]

No, my screen is pattycake, not PATTA CAKE.

[size=14pt]Reading is fundamental. [/size]

#34
[quote author=TRINIDADDY link=topic=93572.msg595863#msg595863 date=1414283472]
"The de facto role of the United States Armed Forces will be to keep the world safe for our economy and open to our cultural assault. To those ends, we will do a fair amount of killing." - Lt. Colonel Ralph Peters

"The weaker and poorer a country is, the more dangerous it is as an example. If Grenada can succeed in bringing about a better life for its people, some other place that has more resources will eventually ask, 'why not us?'" - Chomsky

___

The "Westernization" of the world should not be celebrated, and you guys looking at history in a very superficial way.

Remember, Africa and the Middle East were run by local monarchs and local tribal leaders. This was a brutal form of feudalism.

Africa and the Middle East were then conquered by the bigger Empires. Henceforth, they were ruined by French, British, Dutch, Belgian, American etc Imperialism. These Empires used (and continue to use) divide and conquer tactics, supported brutal monarchs, dictators, terrorist groups and deliberately fostered divisions along ethnic and religious lines. In places like Rwanda, they even arbitrarily created "races" along financial lines (the "middle class" Tutsi pitted against the "lower class" Hutu, even though both belong to the same "tribe"). Any Middle Eastern or African leader who attempted to help the people or fend off exploitation was/is assassinated/couped and replaced with someone more brutal.

So the turmoil and backwardness these countries are in today is a direct result of "Westernization". This "Westernization" deliberately destroyed democratic and progressive movements whilst financing, arming and supporting psycho religious movements, psycho reactionary movements and psycho political movements. This process is still going on. Look at who is the chief supporter of crazy theocratic regimes (Saudi Arabia, UAE, Qatar, Bahrain etc) in the Middle East, as well as who is the chief supporter and creator of crazy extremist groups. It's the "West" which wants barbarism, destabalization and primitivism. Had these countries been left alone, they would be more "civilized".

The "West" itself would have this barbarism in its own backyard were it not for the blood spilt by many activists, freedom fighters and dissidents over the centuries.

Of course every sensible person today knows that the "West" is plundering the Middle East and Africa and is directly responsible for some of the more barbaric religious and social customs still practised in these nations. 99 percent of the nutty movements in Africa and the Mid East (Al Shabbas, Muslim Brotherhood, Isis, Alqueda) were directly caused by the West. Places like Afganistan were secular, progressive and with liberal women's rights back in the 1950s and 60s, until the West set it back 200 years.

But "the West" wants barbarism ONLY up until a certain point.

A good example is Ukraine. The West (CIA, IMF and World Bank) recently couped Ukraine with the help of local neo nazi and terrorist groups (Right Sector and Svoboda). It then put these psycho puppet groups in power, turning the Ukrainian government over to them. This is a common tactic. Historically, the West supports such barbaric groups because such tactics allows the West to conquer nations by proxy. Once they have conquered the nation, they then kick out the crazy puppet groups and put in their own "civilized" guys (usually bankers). These "new guys" then nudge the conquered country toward neoliberal capitalism.

Another good example is Saddam Hussein, a CIA asset in his 20s, who was used by the West to destroy local democratic movements in Iraq and destroy local unions and socialists. Hitler was backed until 1938 for similar reasons. In both cases, the West were unable to kick out their puppet and put in their own guys. Instead, the puppets went rogue.

Israel does the same thing. Israel funded, armed and practically created Hamas in the 1980s to kill the PLO. Hamas, in those days, was a psycho Islamist group and the PLO were a moderate, progressive group. Today Hamas is moderate and internationally recognised and Israel is arming even more nutty guys to destroy Hamas. Someone like Pattycake will blame "muslims" for Palestine being "primitive" and "praise" the "benevolent Westernization of Israelis". A serious person, however, will call this superficial thinking. Worse, this kind of thinking propogates problems.

But the point is, Africa and the Mid East will be plundered by the West via gangster tactics for as long as they can get away with it. The West will then replace their gangster puppets with "new", "civilized" puppets. Some of these replacements will go smoothly, some will backfire. Regardless, eventually all of these countries will be forced to implement and adopt neoliberal, "free market" reforms. Why? Because whilst capitalism loves old school slavery and exploitation, capitalism ultimately must expand or die.  Like a Ponzi scheme, it must constantly seek out new markets, a new customer base, and an always expanding populace, for reasons too complicated to get into at this moment.

Suffice to say that Africa and the Mid East will be westernized and fools will blindly "praise" the West for their "altruism". Once every inch of the planet is in the grip of "modern", "enlightened" capitalism, then people will start asking bigger questions. Namely, why's everyone in debt, poor, overworked, why is unemployment high and why are poverty rates and inequality inexorably increasing.

No doubt future humans will find some other scapegoat, rather than question the system itself.

"was watching the movie Blackhawk Down where a Somali warlord said to a captured US soldier: "

That film was such war porn. It's a big ole racist film which completely ignores why Somalia is so backward, the Western support of dictators like Siad Barre and the West's deliberate pushing of Somalia and Ethiopia into war (by tactically arming and pushing one vs the other, and then vice versa years later).
[/quote]

The women there need to liberate themselves so that the course of violence there can change, and the children can be protected. None of that can be with an institution of oppressed women. And America is far from perfect, so the women all over the world need to liberate themselves so that the course of violence can change and the children can be properly nurtured and protected.

We cannot have peace, love, and prosperity on this planet with the women in darkness.

And that is the law of the universe.

Which is something even Karl Marx tried to tell us a long time ago.

I agree that it shouldn't be called westernization because it isn't. But it's considered westernization to sexist males who want to keep women confined to the bed, kitchen, and supporting their ego.

#35
'Imperial democracy mainstreams women's rights discourse into foreign policy and militarises women for imperial goals' - Zillah Eisenstein

'It is the policies of the ruling class - including policies that institutionalise sexism and racism in society; policies that fuel hate and aggression and take resources away from beneficial programmes - which promote and perpetuate this violence.' - Leilani Dowell


You're basically rallying against sexism and patriarchy, and of course you're ABSOLUTELY correct. But my position is that sexism always has historical, political, class and economic dimensions. It's not enough to say "men should westernize and stop treating kids and women badly" without examining other things.

And often the notion that we in the civilized world are "liberating" women and men from "sexist", "barbarians" is but a pretext and a myth. We engeder this backwardness, benefit from it, and support those who do. Every "liberated" woman in the west has a small army of oppressed women halfway around the world supporting her.

It will be righteous African and Indian and Middle Eastern men and women, those with morality and guts, who slowly and inevitably reform these countries. The West, as it exists as some vague ideological entity, doesn't care much, and will do everything it can to hamper this development.

A sick African man can kidnap and rape a thousand African girls, an Islamist can stone a million women, a Hindu Indian can rape a thousand villagers, and I would not hold them responsible. People are the products of larger forces, the personal is a product of the social, behaviour is a product of systems, and often we in the "West" condemn these people in a condescending way without realising our complicity and how we directly benefit from "their" backwardness.

And when you look at the actual history of these countries, you will see that they were all becoming secular, liberal and "civilized", until we started fanning flames of hate and giving platforms to barbaric people. Human beings aren't stupid. We evolve, we change and we learn compassion and love. In this respect you are absoltely correct: we (hopefully) will become more moral, more "liberal" (in the classical, enlightenment sense). Unfortunately there are jerks on both sides, East and West, who do everything to hamper this.

Other further ironies: it was World War 2, and so massive bloodshed, which "liberated" women by giving them toursers and putting them in factories to make guns and bombs. Likewise, it was the need for a larger workforce (and so the ability to push down wages for both men and women- ie more workers, more competition, smaller salaries), which "liberated" the western woman. Even things like condoms and the pill, which had a bigger effect on women's liberation than well-meaning activists, had dark flip-sides.

#36
[quote author=Kwami link=topic=93572.msg595865#msg595865 date=1414293496]
pattacake ... earlier I used words like spectacularly  uniformed and naive to describe you  but now I take it all back , I  was trying to be polite
I now conclude that  you  are  just plain stupid , willfully ignorant  or insane
[/quote]


correct..and very funny indeed Big Grin Big Grin

pheeeeeeeew.  too much yes.  I have to move away a lil bit.  put some distance between me and the tickles
::LOL:: ::LOL:: ::LOL:: ::LOL::

#37
[quote author=TRINIDADDY link=topic=93572.msg595893#msg595893 date=1414315718]
'Imperial democracy mainstreams women's rights discourse into foreign policy and militarises women for imperial goals' - Zillah Eisenstein

'It is the policies of the ruling class - including policies that institutionalise sexism and racism in society; policies that fuel hate and aggression and take resources away from beneficial programmes - which promote and perpetuate this violence.' - Leilani Dowell


You're basically rallying against sexism and patriarchy, and of course you're ABSOLUTELY correct. But my position is that sexism always has historical, political, class and economic dimensions. It's not enough to say "men should westernize and stop treating kids and women badly" without examining other things.

And often the notion that we in the civilized world are "liberating" women and men from "sexist", "barbarians" is but a pretext and a myth. We engeder this backwardness, benefit from it, and support those who do. Every "liberated" woman in the west has a small army of oppressed women halfway around the world supporting her.

It will be righteous African and Indian and Middle Eastern men and women, those with morality and guts, who slowly and inevitably reform these countries. The West, as it exists as some vague ideological entity, doesn't care much, and will do everything it can to hamper this development.

A sick African man can kidnap and rape a thousand African girls, an Islamist can stone a million women, a Hindu Indian can rape a thousand villagers, and I would not hold them responsible. People are the products of larger forces, the personal is a product of the social, behaviour is a product of systems, and often we in the "West" condemn these people in a condescending way without realising our complicity and how we directly benefit from "their" backwardness.

And when you look at the actual history of these countries, you will see that they were all becoming secular, liberal and "civilized", until we started fanning flames of hate and giving platforms to barbaric people. Human beings aren't stupid. We evolve, we change and we learn compassion and love. In this respect you are absoltely correct: we (hopefully) will become more moral, more "liberal" (in the classical, enlightenment sense). Unfortunately there are jerks on both sides, East and West, who do everything to hamper this.

Other further ironies: it was World War 2, and so massive bloodshed, which "liberated" women by giving them toursers and putting them in factories to make guns and bombs. Likewise, it was the need for a larger workforce (and so the ability to push down wages for both men and women- ie more workers, more competition, smaller salaries), which "liberated" the western woman. Even things like condoms and the pill, which had a bigger effect on women's liberation than well-meaning activists, had dark flip-sides.
[/quote]

Trinidaddy, you are absolutely right, it's not enough to say "men should westernize and stop treating kids and women badly" without examining other things. And I'm not saying that at all. Though it's not true that westerners have no desire for change, because I am American and I am making an effort to enable world change by going deeper and examining other things. So it's not just women in the east whose doing something to bring change into existence. I believe that we all must learn to stop making sweeping generalizations against nations and realize that the same problems of resistance exist everywhere.

There's many people for instance who think that Israel is flawless and America is only flawed. But we must learn to stop seeing in duality and black and white, and realize that all nations are flawed and have internal chaos working at it's roots to obstruct human relations.

#38
africa and middle east will never be westernized

#39
Pattacake  I will ignore you . You are an Indo  Trini Man pretending to black woman  so that you can bash Black people.

#40
[quote author=The Chairman link=topic=93572.msg597769#msg597769 date=1415134399]
africa and middle east will never be westernized
[/quote]

That remains to be seen.  Smile

It's pretty much westernized already in a city like way.

It's just the women whose holding up production on freedom.

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