+- Cricket Windies (https://cricketwindies.com)
+-- Forum: What’s on Your Mind? (https://cricketwindies.com/forum-3.html)
+--- Forum: The Water Cooler! (https://cricketwindies.com/forum-4.html)
+--- Thread: Troops on the Border (/thread-27242.html)
Re: Troops on the Border - chairman - 09-25-2015
![[Image: 12046654_10206831690366232_6143325138405...e=56936F9E]](https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/s720x720/12046654_10206831690366232_6143325138405081788_n.jpg?oh=f8dc4f55be910626708ffb0e3a3a0b58&oe=56936F9E)
Re: Troops on the Border - TRINIDADDY - 09-25-2015
Quote:That incompetent bastard in Venezuela is ruining his country and making stupid things. For those who are passionate about socialism take a look at what socialism is like. Please not he’s sending these weapons illegally, and even though he claims it’s an attempt of the Guyana government to make a scandal against him I don’t believe him. Maduro is a prick, a moron and an ignorant.
That be emotive crazy talk. Some context:
1. Dutch rule Guyana
2. Brits kick Dutch out
3. Brits push west and start colonising Venezuela, run by Spain
4. Spain says "stop that crap"
5. Brits say "lol, we got more guns. What you gonna do?"
6. British Guyana expands into Venezuelan territory, now dubbed "Guyana Esequiba".
7. The Brits rationalise this expansion by saying that since Dutch settlers lived in the Esequiba, and since the Brits conquered the Dutch, and since Venezuela is itself a product of Spanish imperialism, and since all South American borders are arbitrary and meaningless anyway, then this means that the Esequiba belongs to the British Empire. Venezuela says "wtf man?"
8. The 1890s. Venezuela appeals to America and International Courts for help
9. America sides with Venezuela initially. Brits bribe Americans. Americans side with Brits.
10. Venezuela is pissed off.
11. Guyana becomes independent and frees itself from the British Empire. Without recognising the irony, Guyana begins claiming that the Esequiba "belongs to Guyana" because it "belonged to the Brits". Guyana accepts the territorial products of colonialism, whilst denouncing colonialism. Venezuela engages in the same hypocrisy. If anything, the land in question belongs to neither of them - it belongs to the Amerindian Tribal Nations, none of whom ever surrendered their territories.
12. The 1960s. International courts step in and designate the Esequiba as "disputed". No one has access to the area's mineral rights, the courts say. Guyana and Venezuela agree to these international laws.
13. Over time, the Esequiba region becomes "officially" recognised by other countries as "belonging to Guyana". Paradoxically, however, the issue is also "officially not settled under international law". Therefore the Esequiba is also not "officially Guyanese". A similar situation exists with Israel and Palestine. Israel is "officially a country" which "officially stole land" from a Palestine which "officially has a right to all Israeli land" but which nevertheless must "officially obey Israeli borders". Why all these contradictions? Because all national boundaries are arbitrary and based on weird-ass bullsh*t.
14. Because Venezuela's territorial claims are old, based on old maps and old laws, and because Venezuela doesn't really give enough of a crap about Guyana to pursue things in court, border issues are left unresolved.
15. US forms SOUTHCOM, which sees Guyana as a US base of operations against Venezuela. The Guyanese Defense Force starts receiving training and funds from the US.
16. US coups Venezuela. Coup fails.
17. Venezuela hires Exxon to survey Orinoco river basin (within Venezuelan territory). US government advises Exxon to lie about oil deposits. Exxon lies and claims the region has no oil.
18. Venezuela hires another company to re-check for oil. Orinoco basin found rich in oil.
19. Venezuela nationalises this oil. Exxon refuses to abide by these nationalization laws - laws stipulating that oil on a nation's territory should, *gasp*, belong to that nation - and sues Venezuela.
20. Rigged courts say Venezuela has to pay abut 2 bllion dollars to Exxon. Venezuela pays; its a small price to pay for a basin full of oil. Exxon is angry. They want more. They want that Venezuelan oil bad.
21. Exxon throws a hissy fit. CIA and Exxon start messing around in Venezuela again. US begins funding opposition parties and rekindling coup attempts.
22. Exxon begins cooking up a plan to get Venezuelan oil via another route: they strike an illegal deal to search for oil deposits in the Esequiba .
23. Exxon suddenly "find oil". Venezuela suddenly interested in the Esequiba again.
24. Guyana elects David Granger (surprise), an ex military officer trained at US Army bases, as its head
25. Maduro is elected in Venezuela
26. US suddenly sees opportunity to break the "Petrocaribe". The "Petrocaribe" is essentially a bunch of Venezuelan oil trade agreements with Caribbean countries. It cuts into Western profits.
27. US encourages Exxon and Guyana to break the 1960s Geneva Agreements forbidding Venezuela or Guyana drilling for oil. Guyana does as told. US starts a new round of embargoes and sanctions on Venezeula.
28. Venezuela rolls out the troops.
We know what happens next. We've seen this same story play out everywhere in the world, time and time again. America will now paint Venezuela as an aggressor, thereby providing the pretext for US escalation. Maduro, meanwhile, will be forced to act tough in order to unify an angry populace and distract them from domestic problems.
But if Venezuela acts tough and doesn't back down, it loses. The US will paint Venezuela as warmongers, send in troops and kick Venezuela's ass.
If Venezuela backs down, it also loses. 17 countries have Petrocaribe deals with Venezuela. If companies like Exxon cripple Venezuela and break those trade deals, those countries will then depend on western companies for oil. This will hasten the collapse of Venezuela's strangled economy, and it will slowly be forced to privatise and sell off most of its assets. Neo-liberal reforms will transform it as Cuba is currently being transformed.
The correct play for Venezuela is to go to the UN and formally abandon all claims to the disputed territory, "officially" fully turning it over to Guyana, with the provision that all oil there is drilled by then PDVSA (the Venezuelan state oil company). Let Guyana take about 80 percent of the profits, and the rest to Venezuela.
Venezuela won't do this because they've managed to hold off the US so far. They think they're tough.
Guyana, meanwhile, will do whatever the West and Big Oil want. They're poor and want some oil money bad. What's a little war, they will rationalise, if it brings future investments?
These are the kinds of stupid games nations and mega-companies play, with ordinary people powerless and caught in the middle.
Re: Troops on the Border - Googley - 09-25-2015
[quote author=andy76 link=topic=100437.msg656808#msg656808 date=1443146934]
That incompetent bastard in Venezuela is ruining his country and making stupid things. For those who are passionate about socialism take a look at what socialism is like. Please not he’s sending these weapons illegally, and even though he claims it’s an attempt of the Guyana government to make a scandal against him I don’t believe him. Maduro is a prick, a moron and an ignorant.
[/quote]
Our resident Socialist took his toys and gone home! He doan want to play anymore! ::LOL:: ::LOL::
Re: Troops on the Border - TRINIDADDY - 09-25-2015
America calls any country that cuts into its profits "socialist", "communist" or a "dictatorship".
But by their own warped definitions, America itself is more "socialist" than a country like Venezuela.
In reality, Venezuela was never socialist. It is a social democracy. It is no more socialist than any European welfare-capitalist society.
Socialism: worker ownership of the means of production.
Venezuela does not meet this definition. Like America, it is based around private ownership, markets, social classes and generalised commodity production. Unlike America, its markets are strangled by embargoes, superpowers and foreign banks.
What Venezuela is is an oil rich capitalist country that is choked, constantly attacked and operates on the doorstep of the most powerful capitalist country in the world, which is constantly sabatoging it. Why is it being sabotaged? Because it encroaches on Western oil markets, and because Chavez nationalised foreign, western mega-businesses (mostly in oil and construction).
American's think this "nationalisation" is "socialism", even though big nations like America and the United Kingdom have nationalised far more things than Venezuela.
Here's a quote by Friedrich Engels:
"The transformation — either into joint-stock companies and trusts, or into State-ownership — does not do away with the capitalistic nature of the productive forces. The modern state, no matter what its form, is essentially a capitalist machine. The more it proceeds to the taking over of productive forces, the more does it actually become the national capitalist, the more citizens does it exploit. The capitalist relation is not done away with. It is, rather, brought to a head. And brought to a head, it topples over. State-ownership of the productive forces is not the solution."
That's one of the first founders of communist theory, a hundred years ago, explaining that state's nationalising their industries is not "socialism".
Re: Troops on the Border - Kwami - 09-25-2015
Trinidaddy has expressed my sentiments but I could not have put it so eloquently
Re: Troops on the Border - chairman - 09-25-2015
Since when is a trini so smart
Re: Troops on the Border - ketchim - 09-26-2015
This Trini is a student of Marx , Lenin and Engels 8)
“Protect small states†– President Granger to urge UN - chairman - 09-26-2015
Guyana’s President, David Granger is expected to participate in a meeting with Venezuela’s President, Nicolas Maduro on Sunday, September 27 in New York, which will be facilitated by the United Nations.
Re: Granger, Maduro to meet on Sunday - chairman - 09-27-2015
Venezuelan scaling down military presence at Guyana/ Venezuela border
Re: Granger, Maduro to meet on Sunday - ketchim - 09-27-2015
who is the interpreter ?
Spanish to Creolese.... :-[